Did people who used it have their assets seized without warning?

I think the loss of isk and assets was good warning

Yes that is what theyve been saying lol

It was reported on SiSi. CCP let it enter the game unchanged. Therefore it should be safe to assume the CCP knew about it and decided they were Ok with it .

Otherwise, If they didn't know about it, it's their fault for not listening to SiSi feedback. If they weren't OK with it, it's their fault for letting it hit TQ.

Since CCP is the only one who can call something a design flaw, a mechanic which they know (or should know) about which reaches TQ must not be a design flaw.

Tech could not be the income source it is today without CCP's massive cock up. NPC PI orders couldn't have been the income bonanza that it was if CCP hadn't left them up after the patch went live.

The precedent is clear. They should lose whatever they made after it was ruled an exploit, but keep everything from before.

Uh yeah: I think it's fair to say if there is no law against doing _____ that people should not be punished for it if the law is then created after the fact.

EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

Where's the bug? 90d Moving averages are working as intended. FW payouts based on those were working as intended. What was bugged?

Unintended Gameplay != Bug
Needing a Patch != Bug (unless you're saying that Tech either doesn't need patching or is a bug)

Not a Bug/Exploit != Not needing a patch

Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

That was a specific response to this:



Which in turn, was a response to an analogy of exploiting a loophole in RL law.


I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

(See, it's also a game about outsmarting the Devs because that can be fun too, and the Devs don't tend to do anything about broken mechanics until someone takes them and runs with it.)

They reported something (might be a bug, might not be) while it was on SiSi, well before it went to TQ. CCP let that thing go live on TQ. The only possible assumption to be made by the players is that it is not a bug.

The POS guys reported the bug in a way that was intended to hide what they're doing from the Devs. They lied to the Devs. They were clearly making something from nothing.

The LP heist did not try to deceive the Devs, did not lie to the Devs, and were not making something from nothing.

If you're saying that using something that's broken for profit is an exploit, why hasn't everyone with a Tech moon been banned? CCP has said on several occasions that Tech is broken.

Are you serious?

So you expect them to read CCP's mind? Hey, I found this thing that I can make a profit off of. If I don't report it and it turns out to be a bug, I'll get banned, but if I do report it and it turns out not to be, I'll get banned.

Bug Hunters don't know the developer's intent, so they report things that are "odd." The devs then sort out what's a bug and what's intended. All this is supposed to happen before release.

You really, really hate the Goons, don't you. Geeze.

So if everyone does what you suggest, Bugs never get found.

In this case, Item valuation was working as intended, LP payouts were working as intended. Everything was working as intended except that CCP had not anticipated (though they should have, because it's been around for a while) market manipulation.

Un-Anticipated Gameplay ~= Emergent Gameplay
Un-Anticipated Gameplay != Bug

Show me on the doll where the bad Goonie touched you.

So you're saying that because some countries don't follow principles that are widely accepted as basic Human Rights, they're not Human Rights? I'm confused.

Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?


Like Tech? It's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?
What about the dozens of other patch day billionaires? They abused unintended Game mechanics. Where's their banhammer/wallet drain?
What about people abusing Local, using it as an intel tool? That's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?

Clearly, abusing unintended Game mechanics is not a ban/wallet drain worthy offense. Whether it be by precedent or consistent application of some hidden law (there, I covered Common and Civil law for you), there is no good justification for the to be banned or have their wallets drained.

I am quite surprised that it took such an event to alert CCP to a fact they were warned about before the FW changes were implemented a few weeks ago. I clearly recall the warnings about such things happening. I am not condoning what has been done, but I do think that CCP where well forewarned of such a 'feature' becoming a full-blown exploit.

Punishing the guilty ? Hell, they should be rewarded for exposing this otherwise terrible flaw. Did they make that much profit ? Yes, for sure they did, but extreme punishment is not called for here. Way too many emotions colouring any form of fair judgement - judgement which only CCP will make, not all the bleating for blood I read in these forums.

In effect, this was a case of "we're giving you this huge bag of sweets, don't take more than you need." Of course people are going to work out a way to overextend their appetites, what did anyone expect was going to happen ?

I say remove from the guilty wallets up until just before FW was implemented, that data is easily on-hand for CCP for those involved. But bannings and total wallet wipes ? Over-reacting is just as bad as exposing any exploit. A firm but fair decision is called for, not a decision polluted by the emotions of other players.

Write what you will, it's up to CCP to apply the punishment, not anyone here.